I see I neglected a question. Witness reaction? Volume 1 is a 357 page 8x11 page-size book. Most witnesses don't read "big books." ... because the Watchtower is more interested in compliant illiterates than in educating its people.
Old Goat
JoinedPosts by Old Goat
-
15
I want to know. Don't you?
by Old Goat insome of you are probably a bit tired of me promoting these history books, but im doing it again.
1. nelson barbour: the millenniums forgotten prophet.
de vienne is not.
-
-
-
15
I want to know. Don't you?
by Old Goat insome of you are probably a bit tired of me promoting these history books, but im doing it again.
1. nelson barbour: the millenniums forgotten prophet.
de vienne is not.
-
-
Old Goat
Mr. Schulz is indeed still a Witness. He's not quite as old as I am, but he's elderly and infirm. He lives up river from me, close enough to drive up there and visit. I don't out of respect for him. He has never been anything but respectful to me despite my drift into serious doubt.
He has a huge respect for accuracy, and his books show it. He and Dr. de Vienne both teach history. De Vienne lives across a Columbia River bridge from me, and she was kind enough to meet me for coffee and answer questions. She is not at all what I pictured, even though I read her “just for fun” personal blog. She's very small, slightly built and full of humor.
If I have a criticism of Separate Identity, it's that sometimes the biographical details burden the story. However, I came away from the book with a real feel for the people he names. I was also impressed with the fairness with which the authors deal with people with whom they probably differ theologically. There is a noticeable difference between the authors and other writers. E. Gruss had a history degree. But he used history to write polemic. In some footnote or other Schulz and de Vienne note him as "seldom reliable," or some such thing. I agree. Polemic in the guise of history is not really history. They fault Zydeck's book as contrived. A so-called Bible Student historian fed Zydeck material, much of it wrong. I would have been more pointed had I written Separate Identity. But then I'm a nearly 90 year old cranky old man.
I agree that one of the highlights of the book is the discussion of Storrs’ role in all of this. I had no idea. For all his crank ideas, Storrs taught things about personal responsibility before God that the Watchtower has since abandoned to the hurt of every Witness. Another important chapter considers the doctrines believed by the original Study Group. They tell readers from whom they got them and show us how they know. The members of that group were nothing like what the Watchtower’s history video suggest. And they weren’t all men. By 1878 the majority were women and former Methodists.
They avoid doctrinal controversy. I can only think of one place (though there might be another or two that I've forgotten) where their personal belief intrude and it seems an appropriate comment. In a footnote they write:
"While we endeavor to keep our theology out of this book, it seems to us that Thomas and others mistook the meaning of the original Greek word ἀδίκων which basically means “nonconforming.” Entire layers of additional meanings were added by Thomas and others in this debate. Presumptions were made as to the degree and cause of this nonconformance to the divine will that were not warranted by Paul’s words. Those who believed that the “unjust” were resurrected only for damnation drew from John 5:29. (“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”) Russell’s view was that the “judgment” was a testing period based on post resurrection behavior rather than past conduct, death being the penalty for sin."
This is in reference to the No-Resurrection of the Wicked dead doctrine. I think this is well handled even if one can detect personal belief in this.
Many of those who post on this board confuse polemic with history. They're not the same thing. We need to be accurate or we fail. Earlier on this thread someone asked for an example of inaccuracy. Miracle Wheat is an example. People spout all sorts of claims. This book does not address the issue. Apparently that's something Book Three in this serioes is meant to address. What happens here is that inaccurate articles printed in the Brooklyn Eagle are parroted without regard to the fact that newspapers are seldom accurate and the Eagle was being sued. The transcript of that trial is not hard to find. The transcrip presents a different story.
Another example is that photo that is supposed to show Rutherford drunk. They're drinking root beer. You can tell that from the dispenscer in the photo. We should not be willing to spew nonsense.
-
17
2014-06-01 Coordinator of the body of elders ---NEWS BOE---
by WatchTower87 ininstruction: press the 'skip ad' button top right, you should then see the download screen more easily.
no virus ;-).
pdf : http://adf.ly/pkuhp.
-
-
Old Goat
Thanks!
-
15
I want to know. Don't you?
by Old Goat insome of you are probably a bit tired of me promoting these history books, but im doing it again.
1. nelson barbour: the millenniums forgotten prophet.
de vienne is not.
-
-
Old Goat
Some of you are probably a bit tired of me promoting these history books, but I’m doing it again. You should read the two books written by Schulz and de Vienne:
1. Nelson Barbour: The Millennium’s Forgotten Prophet
2. A Separate Identity, volume 1.
They’re both available on lulu.com
Now, down to “brass tacks.” The Watchtower hides most of its history. They have a mythology they foist on Witnesses and others. They don’t lie nearly as much as omit. Personally, I think they don’t know most of what happened in their past. Russell and his followers weren’t interested in recording anything. They thought Jesus was going to “take them home.” Whatever the cause, the Procliamers book is a failure by omission.
Many things said here and elsewhere aren’t true either. When we spout nonsense simply because someone else told us it was true, we damage ourselves. The more accurate we are, the better we make our case. And we do have a case to make.
Schulz and de Vienne write detailed, accurate history. If the Watchtower had done this years ago, instead of perpetuating a religious myth, I would probably have fewer issues. But they didn’t. They’re anti-intellectual, incurious, and believe their own mythology. Schulz and de Vienne strip away myth. I want their work to continue.
They finance their research from the sale of their books and from a small amount of donations.
As I see it, buying their books helps our cause. It informs us, and it helps further their research.
Visit their blog at http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/ . Read through the archives. See if you don’t agree.
Both authors, if you contact them, are open, easy to communicate with, and seem to be nice people. Schulz is a Witness. De Vienne is not. I usually forward bits of my own research to Dr. de Vienne. Schulz is nearly as old as I am and slow to answer. I want their research to continue. They’re next book, volume 2 of Separate Identity, takes us into a period of controversy. No one’s documented it. I want to know the details. Don’t you?
-
17
2014-06-01 Coordinator of the body of elders ---NEWS BOE---
by WatchTower87 ininstruction: press the 'skip ad' button top right, you should then see the download screen more easily.
no virus ;-).
pdf : http://adf.ly/pkuhp.
-
-
Old Goat
Wont open for me. Can we have it in plain text?
-
57
Had an argument with my wife about tinkerbell :(
by BU2B inone of my co workers mother made my 4 year old a blanket with the disney character tinkerbell on it.
as soon as i got it i knew trouble lay ahead.
i wanted to reason with her before my daughter saw it so as not to cause a disruption, but it didn't work out that way.
-
-
Old Goat
You mean faries ... aren't real? Say it isn't so!
-
62
End shunning or lose tax free status
by kneehighmiah inwhich would the watchtower choose if it came down to this in the united states or europe?
losing tax free status would mean losing millions of dollars.
ending shunning means people would leave by the boatloads.
-
-
Old Goat
Doubting,
But those are other issues. Tax churches? I don't care. Use it as blackmail to make someone talk to us? That's wrong.
It's also wrong for an ecclesiastical authority to step into family life. The Watchtower does that frequently.
Religion does not have the character it did in the colonial era or for 125 years after 1776. I doubt Madison would see it in the same light if he were alive today. Not taxing religion is a hold over from the era of state churches.
My secondary issue is what some point to as the truth about the truth. The real issues are not historical. Most of those are not historically accurate anyway. No one checks. I read some nasty comments about the Brooklyn Eagle trial. Those who made them never read the transcript. It's not that hard to find, and if we assert things that aren't so, we prove to Witnesses that we are what they think we are.
The real issues are social and biblical. (At least for me, they are). For many here shunning is a prime issue. Because the right to associate is both a human and constitutional right, any attempt to force our association on those who do not wish it is wrong. Sunning is meant to punish. It's very effective as a punishment. It is not effective if one intends it to lead to repentance. It's a quarantine. As practiced by Witnesses, it is not apostolic. But shunning is a biblical practice.
Seeking to force association is childish. Take your ball home and play with someone else!
I seldom attend. As I've said elsewhere on this board, I'm nearly 90. I don't see well. I don't hear clearly. I'm dependent on others for travel.
I don't spread my personal beliefs. I'm conflicted in some areas because I've spent the bulk of my life as a Witness and believe much of the doctrine. I don't believe the wild approach to prophecy. I don't believe that one can legitimately turn an illustration into a prophecy, the prime current example of which is the faithful servant illustration. I reject Watchtower anti-intellectualism. I earned my PhD in the late 1950s. Even then there was a strong but bifurcated view of education. F. W. Franz was praised for his rather inadequate schooling; others were viewed with some skepticism for their education, no matter how long or well they served the congregations.
-
62
End shunning or lose tax free status
by kneehighmiah inwhich would the watchtower choose if it came down to this in the united states or europe?
losing tax free status would mean losing millions of dollars.
ending shunning means people would leave by the boatloads.
-
-
Old Goat
I agree that Paul's injunction was to treat those expelled from the fellowship as a man of the nations. Since we're not to abuse strangers, the current practice among Jehovah's Witnesses is in some respects extra-Biblical. I never saw shunning as anything but my personal choice, which isn't "recomended" behavior, but was and is how I act.
That said, I can't think of many who weren't disfellowshipped for good cause. Without the biblical injuctions, I still wouldn't speak to most of them. Forcing someone to speak to us who detests what we stand for is a form of self-justification and abuse of our fellows. It's morally wrong. But then, for some, neither morals nor human rights matter.
Another factor here is that many who are disfellowshipped take up "an apostate stance." Many of the claims made are without foundation, especially those based on 'history.' That's one of the reasons i continue to recommend Schulz and de Vienne's books.
Is the Watchtower abusive? Yes. The powers that be are a self-entitled bunch who see themselves as a sort of collective pope. They know in their heart of hearts that they only control people by intimidation and by mis-defining the faithful slave as a prophetic body instead of the mere illustration Jesus intended. You see this in the current donation arragement letter if you read it carefully.
I reiterate that most here are here because they chose not to live by the standards Witnesses accept. Most here came to the so-called truth about the truth late, and many of them belive any negative claim uncritcally because their feelings are hurt and they want to strike back and feel in some way justified. That's not an uncommon reaction to being caught with your hand in the cookie jar. But it is immature.
If you wish to compel other to talk to you, how do you differ from the Watchtower which also uses compulsion in place of Bible teaching?
-
37
A PERSONAL QUESTION to help me finish my NOVEL
by Terry inhere is a personal question:.
is it disturbing to you when an author jumps into the flow of history and radically departs in order to drive an important lesson home to the reader?.
in this novel i have several watch tower leaders meeting incredibly violent deaths at the hands of --well, i won't give anything away.
-
-
Old Goat
Terry,
Good writing trumps all. It's your story to tell. Tell it well and people will enjoy it.
Do you have a Beta Reader, someone with a good sense of grammar and story, who can read it too? Seeing what you write through another's eyes is always helpful.
Good luck with the book.
-
62
End shunning or lose tax free status
by kneehighmiah inwhich would the watchtower choose if it came down to this in the united states or europe?
losing tax free status would mean losing millions of dollars.
ending shunning means people would leave by the boatloads.
-
-
Old Goat
I was a witness (thechically still am) for decades - A Company Servant, Congregation Servant, Elder, etc. I would like to think I used good sense during that era. I never felt compelled to shun anyone. But then I never sat on a "committee" that was unjust or cruel. If I didn't talk to you, it was because you were a royal creep. You slept with your daughter; you stole money from your employer; you fornicated with an clueless young girl. Trying to force someone to talk to us who detests what we did or us personally is as insane as anything the WT has ever done or said. Those who advocate a legal approach have no appreciation for American or human rights. period. And they have no sense of personal responsibility.
You want a Witness to talk to you, change your life. If you left on principal (something rare on this board), then live with your decision. But for God's sake, and your own, find some maturity. Stop whining and moaning.